Talk:Tea Party movement/Archive 3

Tea Party movement

Current talk page

1, 2, 3, 4

This is the talk page of an article titled "Tea Party Movement" that was later merged with "Tea Party" and moved to "Tea Party movement". Archive 1 is the prior article "Tea Party", archive 2 its talk page, and archive 4 its second talk page, started after the move was performed.

Images

(CC) Photo: Sage Ross
Tea party protest in Hartford CT.

(CC) Photo: Sage Ross
Tea party protest in Hartford CT.

Howard, are either of these useful for you? Chris Day 16:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Chris, good question. Certainly, they show real protests, but I would like other opinions if featuring such images gets away from neutrality. This isn't to say that the Tea Party Movement isn't largely a protest group, but should we be presenting such images for every protest group? I honestly don't know.

There aren't policy papers or headquarters to show. --Howard C. Berkowitz 03:00, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I see what you mean. I guess I think of it as a protest movement and certainly it is closely related to their origins. I didn't really think of that as a slur, but if you think that lacks neutrality then better safe than sorry. Chris Day 03:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm trying to err on the side of neutrality, not being a Tea Party supporter -- not that I'm terribly happy with either of the U.S. political parties. Your pictures are quite even-handed; I've seen some from the news media that zero in on the generally accepted lunatic fringe.

As far as "protest movement" — the reality is that they are trying to figure out what they are. Protest alone just can go so far, without programs. There were massive protests in the Civil Rights Movement, but they were usually associated with actionable goals. Of course, this is a very young movement, and, while some is absolutely spontaneous and genuine, there are also political and commercial interests involved.Howard C. Berkowitz 03:53, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Tea Party - duplicate page

I have moved the duplicate page "Tea Party" to Talk:Tea Party Movement/Archive 1 Archive 1 an its talk page to Talk:Tea Party Movement/Archive 2 Archive 2. Some material may be useful for merging with this page.

By the way: Shouldn't this page be moved to Tea Party movement?

--Peter Schmitt 16:53, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

As a Politics Editor, who happened to write much of this article, I had no prior knowledge that the "Tea Party" page was to be moved, and was discussing merger with its principal author -- but had in no way determined that the merge was to be made. I have asked for reversion of the changes while the Author-Editor discussion continues.

No, I do not believe it should be lower-case movement, any more than there should be an entry for U.S. Republican party. One of the matters in active discussion is whether the Tea Party Movement meets the criteria for political party. If it did, it clearly would be a proper name. My general experience in both political science literature and U.S. news media is that upper-case M is more widely used. Howard C. Berkowitz 18:55, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Peter, clearly it has to be lower case. I will move it now (as a Politics editor). Martin Baldwin-Edwards 10:15, 2 October 2010 (UTC) Post Script: since there is already a page of the correct name, it cannot be moved. i will ask the Constabulary to do it (by deleting the other page history). Martin Baldwin-Edwards 10:26, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Also as a Politics Editor, and one perhaps a bit more familiar with American English naming, I object to moving this to Tea Party. Get a third politics editor.

I am most honored that you have come to help, in the truly difficult content aspects of this controversial article where even Mary and I seem to be working together. Howard C. Berkowitz 11:57, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Nobody suggested moving to "Tea Party", but only to "Tea Party movement".

Thank you, Mary, for considering me as fair (on the other talk page). In fact, I do believe that what I did yesterday was not unfair, either.

As already said by others, I did not make any changes to content (well, I had made an edit the day before to indicate clearly the meaning of the numbers) but only made some moves (in accordance with the title you agreed upon) to clean up the organisation of the pages concerned. (I am sorry if this caused some -- not intended -- confusion, but I still think that they were the correct action to be taken because they serve to keep the issue at one place. Unfortunately, Howard has reopened the "other" talk page adding to a possible confusion.) These moves do not influence (in any way) how and what to merge, but it seems that Howard considers them as infringement of his Editorial authority.

--Peter Schmitt 12:35, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I support your actions, Peter. That is why I commented here, as an independent Politics Editor (ie not one who has contributed to the page). Martin Baldwin-Edwards 12:44, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Another Politics Editor may be providing an opinion in the near future. Please do not move anything anywhere; please do not unilaterally rename. Howard C. Berkowitz 13:05, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

This was just bluff, because nobody supports your position. You are a minority of one, as usual in these things. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:50, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Text here was removed by the Constabulary on grounds of civility. (The author may replace this template with an edited version of the original remarks.)

Friedman column on Tea Party and "Tea Kettle"

Those of you working on this article (or articles; life imitates punditry?) might be interested in Thomas Friedman's column in a recent NY Times on what he sees as the two Tea Party movements: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/29/opinion/29friedman.html Bruce M. Tindall 18:48, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I think I read that article but will follow the link to make sure. My initial response is "only two?"

Ideologically, there's a mixture of more formal fiscal conservatives, libertarians, and social conservatives. From my experience, libertarians and social conservatives do not mix well. There's also a significant component of frustrated and angry people, who may not easily fall into any ideology.

Structurally, there's a lack of clarity if it's an interest group or a political party, and, for that matter, if it can reasonably be considered nonpartisan rather than a schism in the Republican Party (United States). I've tried to discuss a broader perspective in restructuring of the U.S. political right, although I haven't touched that in a while. Your comments there would be welcome. Howard C. Berkowitz 18:55, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Starting discussion for merge

Formation

"Formation" is the heading that was in this article, while "Origins" seems to be the equivalent in Tea Party. I think we have to agree on what defined the start, and then be consistent in the timeline.

In this article, I used the dates of the first major physical protests. The Tea Party article, however, seems to use dates of organization of groups, and to some extent different, more local groups than the national sponsors. In either case, by the very distributed nature of Tea Party groups, there is no one single event. There appear to be conflicting national and local claims. How should this be resolved? As a start, I think we have to know the exact date, not just 2009, in which the organizations in the Tea Party article were first visible.

My personal leaning, after 40+ years in Washington, is not to give organizations, especially after the advent of the Web, much credibility for existence merely from making announcements. I wait for them to do something, or at least get significant endorsements. Like it or not, there's a difference between Liz Cheney or John Podesta announcing it, and someone previously at the grassroots announcing it. When Dick Armey sets up a national organization of grassroots, where does this fit? If the New Yorker is correct on the funding of Americans for Prosperity, is that truly grassroots? Incidentally, I absolutely agree there are true grassroots groups.

Incidentally, it's Rick Santelli (two L's). His statement on the floor of the Chicago Stock Exchange has been called a "rant", and he doesn't regard himself as a Tea Party leader or necessarily aligned with it. [1]

--Howard C. Berkowitz 03:47, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

I have copied Mary's three sections on particular organizations into this article. As I mentioned above, though, we need to figure out the timeline of the very first organization, and probably go back to put precise dates on existing text (e.g., Armey, AFP).

We will need, I'm sure, some flow editing in this section. Howard C. Berkowitz 21:55, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Demographics and positioning

Since it has more recent data, I merged Mary's entire section on demographics, to appear before the Positioning section. From the existing Positioning, I moved the earlier Rasmussen poll.

The Positioning section, then, can be the place for discussions of the TPM working within the Republican Party, running independent candidates, or forming a third party. Howard C. Berkowitz 21:44, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

May I ask that this complaining be moved to another section? This first- and second-level header section is concerned with article content, not capitalization. Please do not hijack it. Howard C. Berkowitz 01:08, 3 October 2010 (UTC) No you may not. I am making an editorial ruling, not complaining. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:49, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Various groups? All the more reason not to capitalise 'movement', then. Ro Thorpe 22:57, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

A comment here was deleted by The Constabulary on grounds of making complaints about fellow Citizens. If you have a complaint about the behavior of another Citizen, e-mail constables@citizendium.org. It is contrary to Citizendium policy to air your complaints on the wiki. See also CZ:Professionalism. i have never seen Movement used in a text, unless it is the formal title of an organisation. So, this has to go. I will ask the Constabulary to arrange it.

Constable comments

This subject is obviously in a state of flux that is actively being decided in a workgroup fashion involving several editors, User:Howard C. Berkowitz, User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards, and User:Roger A. Lohmann. Some work appears to be on Roger's talk page, but Martin does not seem to be involved there. Ultimately, the workgroup talk page would be a good place for these discussions, but that is up to you (I can see how that doesn't work well). There seems to be elements that might end up being site-wide (naming conventions), so the Editorial Council may be the place to get the final answer. That's not really a viable alternative here, nor is a future Managing Editor interim decision. So, in the meantime, the working solution that is enforceable by the constabulary will be for the workgroup editors to make a decision concerning the naming of the article and the constabulary will back them up. Please keep things professional as we continue to find the optimal solution for this and other similar challenges. D. Matt Innis 00:37, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

May I plead that people focus on the substance of the article? Mary has collaborated reasonably. Hint: I'm not especially wedded to the capitalization of M or not, but I am not willing to stop working on content while people who have not contributed to content go on about titles, capitalization, etc. The article has been here with "M" for some time,and the world did not stop. The world will not stop if it doesn't get resolved until the EC is in place. Redirect to both cases and move on. Howard C. Berkowitz 00:59, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Howard, you may plead that people continue to work on content. People, whether author or editor, should also continue to work on title by adding additional information (concerning the potential options) that might help the editors make the decision. This may not be the place to continue the discussion on title. However, if it is going on somewhere else, then everyone should be privy to that location so they can add their input as necessary. Otherwise, this has to be considered the default location. D. Matt Innis 01:09, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Until there's a better place, see [2]. Howard C. Berkowitz 01:40, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Googling, I note that the NYT, Guardian and Wikipedia don't capitalise 'movement', but NPR and the group themselves do. Now what does this tell us? Ro Thorpe 01:49, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

In case of doubt, I'd follow the group's lead. If they want to be known as the Tea Party Movement then I'd follow that. You could also check the AP Stylebook or their web site to see how they are handling it.Mary Ash

(undent) Has it occurred to anyone else that "standardization" and "Tea Party" tend not to appear in the same sentence? Thank you, Mary; that was good advice. Frankly, since this is a general policy issue, I'm going to leave it to the EC. Further, I'm not going to discuss it with people that don't get involved in the content of the article. You have "paid your dues". Howard C. Berkowitz 19:46, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

No, Howard. You stated this as an editorial issue, although more correctly it would be decided by the Managing Editor. This article DOES NOT BELONG TO YOU or its authors. If you don't like CZ policy, you may leave the project. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:23, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Baldwin-Edwards, you choose to make a fight when no one else wants one. Further, you are incorrect that the Managing Editor will ultimately decide, since the Managing Editor follows the policy set by the Editorial Council. Of course, it would be even more difficult to have a Managing Editor make the decision if no one will accept nomination for the post. Howard C. Berkowitz 21:35, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Of course, the horror of dealing with your behaviour has deterred everyone from accepting. If you want to see more acceptances, just quit CZ. See what happens. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:48, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, the horror. Constables, I'd rather you leave in this bit...isn't there a line "with thine own words thou condemneth thee?" I'd rather the Constabulary consider when a pattern of personal attacks is evidencing itself, and perhaps consider some selective page blocking for an individual with a behavioral problem. While I certainly don't own this article, I did write the original version, and have been collaborating with Mary, bringing in her text. I think that's demonstration of substantive contribution.

There are, indeed, some good questions to be discussed -- how should the start of the M|movement be defined, since there were a group of autonomous local rallies. The major U.S. news media generally see it as starting with national rallies. Howard C. Berkowitz 22:34, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

But, if I am so intimidating, I do look forward to a brief but luxurious career as a James Bond villain. Howard C. Berkowitz 22:34, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

The Constabulary is well aware of who has a history of behavioural problems. You do not need to remind them of your presence. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 22:51, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Lookin' Good!

Love the edits and how the article is fleshing out. Lookin' good! Thanks, Mary Ash 04:00, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

The case of the title is still wrong, and looks silly to everyone who knows the literature. This HAS TO GO. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 19:26, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I am reminded of Tom Lehrer's retirement speech, in which he said that in a world in which Henry Kissinger receives the Nobel Peace Prize, no room was left for satire. I am also reminded of a firm that made quite a bit of money alerting people to the probable landing point of Skylab after reentry. They called themselves Chicken Little Associates. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:48, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

If that is the extent of your defence of the uppercase M, then we will all assume that you admit defeat. In any case, you are a minority of one and have no authority to block the move of the page to a more correct title. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:19, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, if you bothered to read the link to where relevant Editors have been discussing it, you would find that I am hardly alone in either using the capital M, observing that there are precedents for it, and that "movement" does not have a consistent usage in general academic publications or at Citizendium. Are you, then, going to go to all the other inconsistent usages listed and "fix" them?

In general, I have stopped arguing about titles of articles with people who make no other constructive contribution to them. I do not admit "defeat", but, as does a wise general, avoid combat with forces irrelevant to the main objectives. The capitalization is not especially important to me, and I can defend it either way, but I choose not to bother. That was the editorial "We", I assume, or was it the royal? Created much content recently, "we"? Given substantive editorial guidance on content? Chosen to argue about capitalization after the apparent sublimation of refusing to participate in CZ politics? Ah yes...a Politics Editor that hates politics.

It will be interesting to see more input on U.S. politics from an apparent expert on them. Howard C. Berkowitz 21:32, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

No Howard, you are the one lacking a training in political science. You do not have the necessary knowledge to make the judgement; and there is no support for your position on the page you refer to. Far from it. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:45, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Howard, you say: 'capitalization is not especially important to me, and I can defend it either way, but I choose not to bother'. For one normally so industrious, that is an unconvincing attitude. And if you gave your arguments against, we could all agree with you. Ro Thorpe 22:47, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

See CZ:Naming conventions for current CZ policy. Lowercase is to be preferred unless there is a definite reason for uppercase. According to your own usage there are Tea Party "movement(s)/group(s)". This shows that the proper name of these organizations is "Tea Party" and movement is only an explaining attachement.

If "capitalization is not especially important" to you, Howard: Why do you resist so vehemently?

While there is no rule against discussing a title without contributing to it (as an Editor who may want to approve it one even has to avoid contributing!) I am allowed to even by this rule -- I made a minor edit contribution to the previous "Tea Party" page.

--Peter Schmitt 22:52, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh no, Peter, I didn't mean to imply it was a CZ rule. I have made it a personal rule, however, not to engage with people about article titles when they make no other contribution to an article. My experience, not only with articles that I titled, is that such arguments tend to be fruitless and, to borrow Chris Day's term, "time sinks".

Ro, I suspect you will not find me being industrious at the nuances of titles, especially when multiple interpretations are possible. I very much regret not having created an article with the proper English title of Party of God, rather than getting into time-wasting arguments about whether the Arabic should be transliterated Hezb'Allah, Hizbollah, Hezbullah, etc. Redirect and the hell with it. I have argued titles, in a role as Editor, when, for example, they referred to a specific document that didn't have the same title as the article. For example, there was one about a U.S. intelligence document that had a distinct name, but the article was titled with an offhand quote from a Senator. In that case, the contents eventually merged into another article, so both content and title were involved. Howard C. Berkowitz 23:07, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Peter: along with Larry I was one of the main authors of the CZ Naming Conventions policy. We worked hard to try to standardise things where reasonable, to identify different patterns where applicable, and to leave naming to observed practice where there seems to be no pattern at all. The use of proper nouns in English is highly constrained in the 21st century -- to the point that some of us over a certain age regret the demise of "State" in political science. However, the trend is universal in English, and observable in the academic social science literature since about 1960. Howard is just wrong. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 23:13, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

As Howard says, this argument is a "time sink". However, if you care anything at all about the credentials that I bring to CZ, please heed me when I say, "Tea Party Movement" is wrong and "Tea Party movement" is correct. Follow my advice: move the present article to Tea Party movement and the "time sink" will come to an end. But whether you do or not, this is the only comment I will have on this particular matter. Hayford Peirce 23:22, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

(undent)It looks like things have reached a plateau here with no new arguments concerning the title. I've deleted the Tea Party movement page to make room for the change if necessary.

While I understand that editors will disagree occasionally, and sometimes vehemently, this rather simple decision seems to be skirting on unprofessional, so I'll be archiving it soon. On this page, do keep your comments related to the article. If you need to discuss each other's qualifications, please use the workgroup page or email amongst yourselves. D. Matt Innis 23:29, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I apologise that it proved necessary to comment on another editor's expertise. This is not good for CZ: we should all know our own limits. Since this page title is not in conformity with the CZ Naming Conventions, which prevail in the absence of any policy from CZ institutions, I am moving the page to the lower case m as an editorial decision. It can be referred to the EC when it is elected, if anyone is distressed by our policy on this. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 23:35, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict before Baldwin-Edwin moved) Matt, when you archive, please be sure to retain the discussion dealing with the substance of the article.

As I have said, I make it a personal rule -- it's not CZ policy -- not to get involved in title discussions with people who do not also work on the article. I personally will not move the article based on people that have not contributed to it. If someone else tried to do so, do they really expect I would pull out a .44 Magnum and ask "Feeling lucky, punk?"

Indeed, no one "owns" articles. In this case, we have a dispute between two equal editors; Baldwin-Edwards tends to dismiss that I am a Politics and History Editor. He has not seen my credentials that were accepted by the Editorial Personnel Administrators. I will mention that while they do not include teaching political science at a university level, they do include direct experience in real-world political organizations and campaigns. Academia is not supreme.

Maybe this discussion is relevant, in that it bears an increasing resemblance to the worst aspects of American television "news". --Howard C. Berkowitz 23:48, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Howard: if you insist on using my surname (which apparently stretches you anyway, as one instance is rhyming) I will ask the constabulary to consider banning you for deliberate uncivil behaviour in defiance of CZ community policy. You may not behave as you like, and we are not interested in your personal "rules" about first names. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 23:52, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

The page was renamed in conformity with existing CZ policy after a decision by a Politics editor, who has a background in political science, reseach and publications, along with expert participation in government and intergovernmental policy making. The analogy with American media is baffling, other than to take it as a refusal to accept CZ policy. Those editors who do not wish to accept CZ policy are free to leave the project. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 23:59, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Howard I do believe I have professional credentials, based on your explanation, ("Academia is not supreme") as I have professionally written about politics and governmental affairs as a journalist. Why does CZ not recognize me for that? I have also run for political office and have served as a president for a local political group. Hmmmm sure sounds like expert qualifications to me. I also have a minor in history which is closely allied with political science. Hmmmmm...but then again I am no expert. Also, why do you insist on bring up the discussion of .44 magnum guns as how does this fit into the discussion of the Tea Party movement? Some questions and thoughts that could use some answers.Mary Ash 00:00, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

My last comment in this section: Baldwin-Edwards, go right ahead and ask the Constabulary to do what thou wilst, although it may reflect threefold. Such a complaint would, reasonably, bring up a pattern of personal attacks on the Forum and Wiki. Since the Constabulary can receive relevant email, your scatological commentary on the Charter list would be in evidence.

The .44 Magnum reference is to the esteemed Dirty Harry Callahan. "Feeling lucky, punk?"

Mary, the Editorial Personnel Administrators reviewed my background, including things not on my user page. Baldwin-Edwards was not involved in that decision, and apparently refuses to accept that I am, among other things, an Editor in Politics and History. He is challenging a decision that was made. You can submit your credentials to the EPAs and see if they accept them. Howard C. Berkowitz 00:09, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Could we get back to discussing the Tea Party?

Actually, Howard's behaviour on this page has been just as interesting as the subject of the article itself. The only person challenging anything on CZ is Howard. As is well known, the allocation of editorial competences is done crudely by wide workgroups: it is expected that people show recognition of their limitations as well as their expertise. Apparently, Howard does not follow this rule. Furthermore, there is no subject editor authority to countermand official CZ policy. Apparently, Howard does not believe in that rule, either. One wonders if Howard accepts any of the rules of CZ. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:20, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Howard and Martin. Both have given me some information to mull over. I do believe academia and "real life" professional experience have their place at Citizendium. Both are important and both bring much to the table. And for my unabashed off-topic statement: I do believe CZ would benefit if they could figure out a way to bring both sides together to help build CZ into the best encyclopedia it can be. I suspect a few more people would volunteer too if they realized anyone could offer something, rather than a select few, and CZ would blossom to include writers from all walks of life. Mary Ash 00:27, 4 October 2010 (UTC)