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==Welcome!==
== Classics articles ==
{{awelcome}}  Also, if you have experience contributing to Wikipedia, our [[CZ:Introduction_to_CZ_for_Wikipedians|Introduction to Citizendium for Wikipedians]] is ''highly'' recommended. — [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 20:17, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
Perhaps what we can do, to get the classics articles approved, is to do some recruiting from classics mailing lists?  There is one very big classics group, I forget what it is. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 21:45, 4 July 2007 (CDT)
:If this will serve a general purpose too, it would be fine with me. But no rush just for a few small articles. :-) —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 03:01, 5 July 2007 (CDT)


{{Workgroup introduction}}
== [[:Image:Augustus_Capricorn_SidusIulium.jpg]] ==
Thanks, perfectly done. :-)  —[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] [[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 22:31, 4 July 2007 (CDT)


To start new workgroups, propose them [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/board,5.0.html at the forums].
== [[:Image:Gruenewald_IsenheimAltarpiece_Crucifixion.jpg]] ==


[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 20:17, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
Arne, would you kindly see my note on the image page?   —[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] [[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 21:08, 21 July 2007 (CDT)
: I added two links to the image's [[Image_talk:Gruenewald_IsenheimAltarpiece_Crucifixion.jpg|talk page]], one commenting on the GFDL release of the image library by directmedia, the publisher of the printed offline-Wikipedia (see also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directmedia_Publishing here], the other one with a footnote mentioning the GFDL status. —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 21:50, 21 July 2007 (CDT)


== Recently uploaded image(s) ==
==Nicene Creed==
Hi. Thanks for contributing to CZ!  I hate to have to tell you this but one or more images you recently uploaded are lacking clear copyright data.  Please carefully review the image(s) you uploaded while referencing [[Help:Images#Copyrights|Images Help—Copyrights]]. Please fix the problem rapidly, as the image(s) will otherwise have to be deleted.  In this case, it looks like you just need to place in the source from which you obtained the image.  Thanks!  — [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 20:15, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
: Hi Stephen, thanks for the hint. I already wrote you an e-mail. If the image is deleted before any license issues are cleared, then so be it. I would just have to upload it again then. (^_~). Best wishes & season's greetings. —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 08:52, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
:: Harlan J. Berk agreed to the use of any of their images as long as they are given credit. —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 11:05, 9 April 2007 (CDT)


{{badimage}}
Hello Arne,


:''You need to carefully follow the directions to document permissions''. [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 21:13, 11 April 2007 (CDT)
You replaced
"The original version promulgated at that time (from ''Epistola Eusebii'', circa 350 A.D.)"


::Great job, Arne. Thanks! [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 21:16, 4 May 2007 (CDT)
With


Got the lock page message. Thanks for staying on top of this stuff. :-) ---[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 14:04, 13 May 2007 (CDT)
"The second version promulgated at that time (from ''Epistola Eusebii'', circa AD 350)"


== Thanks hugely for [[Ancient Celtic music]] ==
Do you have a source?  --[[User:Thomas Simmons|Thomas Simmons]] 00:52, 31 July 2007 (CDT)


I never knew that that much was known about ancient Celtic music.  What I would like to know, personally, as an aficionado of Irish traditional music, is whether experts have any information whatsoever about whether the traditional musics of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and Brittany--called collectively "Celtic," and which have some family resemblances--are anything like a continuation of the music you describe in that article?


Also, here's a stupid question--were there any ancient music notation systems?  Any old tunebooks available?  I'd like to see articles about that. Obviously, if there were any ancient Celtic tunes notated, we'd be able to have opinions about musical influences or continuity. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 13:48, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
Just saw the revert. LOL Never mind. --[[User:Thomas Simmons|Thomas Simmons]] 00:54, 31 July 2007 (CDT)


:Hi Larry, I don't know of any expert research on the musical transmission in the "Celtic" region from antiquity through the Mediaeval Ages. I personally don't think it's probable that today's (or the Mediaeval) "Celtic folklore" is based on the Celtic music of antiquity. Today we have folklore, but back then it was a very sophisticated and integral civilization probably including highly developed music styles and practices, in the political, military, religious realm and other fields, at least before the times of the Roman empire. There is definitely a continuous musical tradition through the ages, but only on the highest level, and it is restricted to the "victors". Christian liturgical music for instance, especially the Gregorian music, is mainly based on ancient Roman monophonic sacral chants, also e.g. the dual choir (Latin/Greek) in the Good-Friday liturgy being a continuation of Roman funerary practices which can be traced back to Caesar's funeral service. So integral musical transmission (especially in the Dark Ages) would be restricted to the tightened (theo)political structures, i.e. Christianity as a continuation of the vanished Roman empire. This imperial power (whether Roman at first or Christian later) would have assimilated, superposed and altered any pre-existing musical culture, especially one of such a highly civilized culture as the Celtic chiefdoms. (The same happened to the Etruscans, by the way.) We know the saying: "There can be only one." But this would only apply for the "high society", where music—in combination with the sacral/liturgical sphere—was part of the complex of political rulership: "Christus vincit/imperat/regnat" etc.. In rural cultures it was probably different. I guess there could have been some remnants of ancient Celtic music passed down in tradition (despite Roman cultural rule), similar to the dirges (''neniae'') of the ancient Roman ''praeficae'', which have been partially preserved as the Italian lament tradition, especially in Sardinia. There was surely a lot of intercultural exchange and foreign influx, which would account for the "family resemblances" that you mention, but it's a different social structure than what was known as the Celtic culture in antiquity. The key characteristic of the Mediaeval Ages on the common (i.e. peasant) level is what's called by some the wild dispersion of ''universalia''. When Rome vanished, Europe was left in "cultural ruins" without any defining and structuring force. (The latter was restricted to the Church; see above.) On the lower levels of society (i.e. the great majority of the people) we are dealing with an extremely heterogenous rankgrowth of legends, cultural fragments from antiquity etc. pp., new legends (like King Arthur and the Nibelungs) surfacing as rehashes of vanished ancient times. The "grunt musical culture" in this environment would have been very particulate, regionally anchored and highly fragmented. Only later would the foreign influx have begun to slowly harmonize the Northern-European musical culture. It's very significant that the musical genre that we today call "Celtic music" only began around the 17th century.
And the Crux Orthodoxa in the Orthodox article, very nice.--[[User:Thomas Simmons|Thomas Simmons]] 00:59, 31 July 2007 (CDT)


:Your question on the ancient notation system is anything but stupid. :-) We know from ancient sources that there was a Greek notation system, which probably also the Romans used. (However, only Greek "music scores" have survived.) Since the Celts seem to have been a highly civilized culture, they will definitely have written down their music in some way or another. (I'd bet on that!) But sadly, none of the ancient Celtic music has survived in this way. Not even the Roman music has been passed down to us; we know it only as a Christian mutation (Gregorian, Byzantine etc.; see above). So the only information we can gather is from the sources and depictions, e.g. the construction of the instruments, the sound of the carnyx, the fact that the early Germanic tribes knew how to rhyme (long before the Irish tribes) etc. pp.. Reconstructional work in this respect is to be taken with a grain of salt. It is often suitable to re-enact the ''sound'' and some playing techniques, but anything concerning melody and harmony is pure speculation. (It's feasible however that Gallic/Celtic music was in some way "romanized"… or at least hellenized, because the Greeks came to Gaul long before the Romans did.) With rhythm it's a different thing: From ancient poems one can extract the metrics and therefore the "beat" of the music that might have been associated with the lyrics.
==Caesar==
I know it's a bit insular :-) , and I don't want to sound exclusionary, but this article seems to be about etymology more than anything else. Modern linguistics is radically different from pre-1950s study. Today, it's more about the study of patterns in language,and how these are represented in the mind, rather than the history of words.


:Best wishes. —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 19:26, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
Also, the problem here is that we don't have enough workgroups to distinguish the modern social science of linguistics from language study generally. And I realise you might be thinking about the [[Arne (name)]] article. But I think that lots of workgroups can cover language generally, rather than linguistics. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 10:04, 12 August 2007 (CDT)


::PS (edit): I've now added the paragraphs on the Germanic chants to the article. —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 09:52, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
:No problem. In essence, classical philology and etymology do belong to the "Classics" workgroup. So we have to acquire CZ authors/editors who also now a bit about these topics. :-) <span style="border: 3px solid #90ade3;">[[User:Arne Eickenberg|<span style="background: #bad1fb; color: #000000;">&nbsp;Arne Eickenberg&nbsp;</span>]][[User_talk:Arne Eickenberg|<span style="background: #90ade3; color: #FFFFFF;">&nbsp;talk</span>]]</span> 10:13, 12 August 2007 (CDT) ''note:'' original post [[User_talk:John_Stephenson#Your_edit_on_Gaius_Iulius_Caesar_.28name.29|here]]


Thanks very much--very interesting.  Perhaps you could make a start on [[Celtic music]], explaining the ambiguity and your understanding of the early history of what we now call "Celtic music."  Here's another stupid question: do the people called Celtic, or Gaelic, today, have any even ''genetic'' relation to the ancient Celts?  Why are they called the same? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 10:45, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
==Germany==
Arne, Sie sind ein bisschen German, aren't you? I started a page on [[Germany]] because it was one of the most-linked-to dead links. It really needs the eye of someone who's actually a citizen. Danke, John. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 10:26, 12 August 2007 (CDT)


==[[:Image:Augustus_Capricorn_SidusIulium.jpg]]==
==[[Theodor Lohmann]]: Check Translation?==
You need to contact Eric Kondratieff and ask about this image. A ''link'' is not a graphic. Too, you need to ask about your modifying the original image from which it came. I went ahead and deleted this one because it is just too problematic. If you need help, just ask me.
Arne,
Along these same line ( deutch sprechen), I have a favor to ask: I've recently posted a translation I did of a brief biographical item on Theodor Lohmann, #2 to Bismarck in the 19th century development of the German social insurance system. (We share a common surname, but are no relation to my knowledge. See my comments on this on my talk page.)
My German is somewhat shaky, and I am wondering if you would be willing to look over the translation and compare it with the original German Wikipedia article - which as far as I know is quite accurate - to see if I made any serious mistakes in the translation. Steve Ewen suggested you might be willing to do this.Ob Sie kanne oder nicht, vielen danke!
[[User:Roger Lohmann|Roger Lohmann]] 06:56, 1 September 2007 (CDT)


<Blockquote>
: I answered on your talk page. We should deal with the article content and translations there and/or the article's talk page. Greetz. <span style="border: 3px solid #90ade3;">[[User:Arne Eickenberg|<span style="background: #bad1fb; color: #000000;">&nbsp;Arne&nbsp;Eickenberg&nbsp;</span>]][[User_talk:Arne Eickenberg|<span style="background: #90ade3; color: #FFFFFF;">&nbsp;talk</span>]]</span> 09:14, 1 September 2007 (CDT)
* ''Description'': Augustan gemma with the Capricornus and the ''sidus Iulium'' in the background<br>
* ''Photographer'': unknown
* ''Author of original'': Eric Kondratieff
* ''Source'': image archives at [http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~ekondrat/Octavian3.html ''From Octavian to Augustus'']; image at http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~ekondrat/Augustus/Aug_Sidus_Iulium.jpeg<br>
* ''Copyright'': Copyright 1998, 1999, 2000 Eric Kondratieff/Forum Antiquum; All graphics and backgrounds (except the "ARGOS" logo and the background for *this* page) in this site Copyright 1998, 1999, 2000 Eric Kondratieff/Forum Antiquum Links may be copied and used subject to any and all licensing agreements or copyrights of their originators. '''Note on re-use policy at http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~ekondrat/Octavian3.html'''


:NOTE: image of this gemma ("Augustus_Capricorn_SidusIulium.jpg") extracted from a jpeg-image combining several coins and gemmas; Copyright by Eric Kondratieff
==[[Gaius Iulius Caesar (name)]]==
</Blockquote>
Approved!!!  Sorry that took so long.. I dropped the ball (oops).  Give me another one!  --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 22:27, 20 August 2007 (CDT)


If you get Eric Kondratieff to release it under an open content license (the first thing you should ask), or failing that use it by explicit permission of him, and permission to alter the image, let me know and I will undelete the pages and we can fix them.
== [[Jake the Explainer]] ==
Arne, I'm not ''quite'' sure what you were thinking of with [[Jake the Explainer]], but it was posted for speedy deletion, and those who did so were quite right.  This concept (not the artistic practice, but the name and specific conceptualization of the practice) seems to be your own original invention, or if not, then one that has virtually no currency at all.  Anyway, the article now lives at [[CZ:Cold Storage/Jake the Explainer]].


[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 12:00, 14 May 2007 (CDT)
By the way, where have you gone?  I enjoyed your contributions when you were here. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 19:48, 7 December 2008 (UTC) (a.k.a. Larry the Editor)
:Hi Larry, I'm still around and will surely return as an author in the future. I'm currently working on a lot of other projects, including my thesis, so it'll be some time before I return. Probably in 2009, though. By the way: the industry term ''Jake the Explainer'' was coined long before the internet arrived, which is probably why you don't find it on the web. Modern derivatives (which one ''does'' find) are e.g. the Morris & Sam. I took the term from the book ''Screenwriting Tricks of the Trade'' by William Froug, Emmy-winning writer/producer, producer of the year 1956 (Prod. Guild of America), recipient of the Writes Guild Valentine Davies Award 1987, professor emeritus (UCLA), founder of the UCLA Film & TV Writing Program, author of several books of screenwriting. So, it's definitely not my own invention. ;-) <span style="border: 3px solid #90ade3;">[[User:Arne Eickenberg|<span style="background: #bad1fb; color: #000000;">&nbsp;Arne&nbsp;Eickenberg&nbsp;</span>]][[User_talk:Arne Eickenberg|<span style="background: #90ade3; color: #FFFFFF;">&nbsp;talk</span>]]</span> 20:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


== Illustrations ==
Edit conflict!  While you were writing the above, I was writing this:


Arne,
Some more careful searching--searching on "Sam the Explainer" and "Morris the Explainer" too--shows basically that the concept is definitely ''not'' your invention (sorry for suggesting otherwise).  The article you wrote lacked adequate sourcing, and the concept and names are certainly obscure, but neither of these was a reason to delete it.  So...I'm about to undo my work (and Chris') and let the community discuss this before taking any further action. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


I think that [[Ancient Celtic music]] is just about ready for Approval.  I was wondering, though, if it might be possible to add an illustration or two of some of the instruments discussed later in the article.  I've left a note on the article's [[Talk:Ancient Celtic music|Talk]] page with one suggestion.  Let me know what you thing. Cheers, [[User:Russell Potter|Russell Potter]] 09:09, 12 June 2007 (CDT)
See [[Talk:Jake the Explainer]] for more. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


== Please put back approval template ==
:Sorry about the rash of deletions on my part.  I saw the deletion and move to cold storage so thought a general clean up of the subpages would make sense too. Please excuse the trigger finger. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 20:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
:: Absolutely no problem. :-) <span style="border: 3px solid #90ade3;">[[User:Arne Eickenberg|<span style="background: #bad1fb; color: #000000;">&nbsp;Arne&nbsp;Eickenberg&nbsp;</span>]][[User_talk:Arne Eickenberg|<span style="background: #90ade3; color: #FFFFFF;">&nbsp;talk</span>]]</span> 21:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


Arne, take a look at the message I put on Russell Potter's talk page, please. Add all you like. Approval will take place with changes Rusell approves. Once there is approval, you can keep working and it can be re-approved in a new version. An author is not allowed t change the approval template, and further- there is no reason to do so. Quality is not at stake here. I am taking a break and can only look in on te wiki now and then for the next couple of weeks- e-mail me vfrom my user page if you need to discuss this. [[User:Nancy Sculerati|Nancy Sculerati]] 09:49, 12 June 2007 (CDT)
== My compliments on Carotta ==


:Nancy, and Arne, I have re-inserted the Approval template, with an updated pointer and a June 15th approval date. Let me know if/when you'd like that pointer updated so that any additional changed will make it into the Approved version!  Thanks as every for your careful concern!  But don't worry, it's fine to make improvements now, and even ''after'' approval! [[User:Russell Potter|Russell Potter]] 09:58, 12 June 2007 (CDT)
Being Dutch and being a former colleague of Anton van Hooff (same university, different departments), I read with great pleasure your section about "Dutch Controversy" in the article on Carotta. I also read several of the Dutch articles that you link to, very interesting! I get the impression that Van Hooff's attacks are unscientific, he should be able to come up with better arguments. When you need help with interpreting/translating some of the Dutch sources let me know; I'm glad to be of assistance. --[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 16:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
:Thank you. To be honest, I want this article to be neutral, fair and balanced. A slight problem at the moment concerning the Dutch debate is that there are no direct sources for the arguments made by the other "anti-Carottist" commentators. If you know any source for those quotes, I would be much obliged. At the moment I can only refer to them as tertiary and unsourced in a footnote, which makes the article look biased at that point. In any case, thanks for your kind offer. PS: It's always funny, how small the world is. ;) Van Hooff is no stranger to me. The tragic component here is that according to people close to him he is only attacking Carotta to get back at Cliteur and van Friesland, ex-journalists from the ''Buitenhof'' political TV format. (But I can't use that in the article; there is no independent source.) Seen from another viewpoint, van Hooff has the bravery to at least ''try'' a refutation. Many other reviewers (among them scholars) don't really dig into the subject. They never read the book, only ''about'' the book, but still say it's nonsense. That's not very scientific. Van Hooff seems to be different, at least in part, although I don't know whether he has really read the full research report. —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 16:52, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


== Your name ==
== Problem with mp3 upload ==


Hi Arne,
Hi Arne,
I am here to let you know that using only your initials as a nickname does not conform to Citizendium guidelines.  Would you please change it to something that uses your full last name and some form of your first and or middle names.  Thanks. --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 11:37, 12 June 2007 (CDT)
:Oh, okay… didn't know that. I used the standard wiki-link like this: ((User: User name|User Initials)), which doesn't actually alter the name itself but only how it's printed on the specific page. —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 08:57, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


== Approval ==
I want to be sure I understand the problems you are having uploading mp3 files larger than 2 MB. Firstly, according to http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Images there is a 2MB limit on image upload. While you are uploading an audio file, not an image file, I suspect this limit applies to all uploaded files regardless of format. So, you want to increase the maximum size for an uploaded file. Do you have any limit in mind?


Hi Arne,
Secondly, there is no template for audio files. You mention that you could use the <nowiki>{{Image}}</nowiki> template, but this seems strange since the file is an audio file. You would prefer to use <nowiki><mp3>FILENAME.mp3</mp3></nowiki>, is this correct? Just so I understand, were you able to use the <nowiki>{{Image}}</nowiki> template for the 2 MB audio files you uploaded?
 
Thanks, [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 17:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
:Hi Dan, thanks for the reply. (1) The upload page currently states:"Maximum file size: 50 MB / Permitted file types: png, gif, jpg, jpeg, ogg, svg, mp3, ogg." So that's probably the cause for my confusion. If the limit is 2MB, everything's fine. I can live with 2MB. I just thought the limit was 50MB (cf. [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Special:Upload&uselang=other-pd&wpUploadDescription=%7B%7BImage_Details%7Cpd%0A%7Cdescription++%3D+%0A%7Cauthor+++++++%3D+%0A%7Csource+++++++%3D+%0A%7Cdate-created+%3D+%0A%7Cpub-country++%3D+%0A%7Cnotes++++++++%3D+%0A%7Cversions+++++%3D+%0A%7D%7D here]). (2) No template: okay (v.i, 4). (3) On the image template: I apparently confused the <nowiki>{{Image|…}}</nowiki> template with the standard <nowiki>[[Image:…]]</nowiki> code. The latter is possible with audio files, but it neither embeds them nor leads directly to the audio file. That's why I'm using direct URLs at them moment [[Spiel/Audio|here]]. (4) The solution for audio files would either be a template like the "Listen" template at WP or markup like <nowiki><mp3>FILENAME.mp3</mp3></nowiki>. It doesn't really matter much how it is implemented. The only thing important for me is to be able to directly embed the audio files as streaming audio on an article page, including some form of player, with play, pause, stop etc. —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 17:21, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 
:: It looks like the extension necessary to play mp3 files is not installed on CZ. So, I have added bug 3, which is an enhancement request for this extension. While we are at it, the extension for using ogg files is also not installed. Do you foresee any need for audio files in this format? If so, would you add an enhancement request for it on bugzilla? Thanks. [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 18:10, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 
::: Wikipedia prefers ogg files, because there are no licenses/patents involved. But the MP3 license is only connected to the creation of the file, i.e. the encoding process, the use of the algorithm. It has no effect on the later use of the file. WP founder Wales wrote: "The policy is that we must avoid file formats that can not be used by legal free software." But MP3 can be used by free software. QuickTime for example is free of charge. Furthermore, MP3 encoding is possible with freeware libraries such as LAME. So I don't really understand WP policy here, and Wales' reasoning was surely erroneous. At the moment I think that mp3 will do fine. The only problem is its lower quality, compared to other formats, but with the 2MB limit in place, this is a moot argument anyway. If the limit is one day raised, then it would be interesting to talk about other formats again. AAC comes to mind for example. —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 18:41, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
:::: '''ON SECOND THOUGHT''': There are already a lot of ogg files on Wikipedia, which are either public domain or added under fair use. So I guess it would be okay to implement an ogg extension at CZ too, so we can transfer files, when needed, without converting them to mp3. —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 18:47, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 
::::: Would you add an enhancement request to bugzilla for ogg format files? (this would be an extension request. You can use the following url for reference: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:OggHandler ) I would do it myself, but I don't want most of the bug reports in bugzilla to be created by me. That gives the impression that bugzilla is my personal playground, which is not its intent.
:::::: I did just that a few minutes ago. Apparently it overlapped with Greg, who just installed the ogg handler, if I read it correctly. So we only have to see, how to proceed on the MP3 issue, either with the dewplayer (apparently CC A-SA) or with the FlashMP3 extension (GPL). —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 19:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 
[unindent]
 
As I mentioned in the bug report, three of the WMF projects do not appear to have an mp3 extension installed. Do you know of any other high use MW wiki sites that do? [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 19:31, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 
: Not at this moment. —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 19:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 
:: Right now (perhaps I am misinterpreting things) Greg may be reluctant to load an extension that has not received some solid testing on another site. He has the responsibility for keeping CZ running and loading untested extensions increases the likelihood that this goal is not met (and he gets yelled at). If you look at the web page you reference for Extension:FlashMP3 you will see it is still in beta testing. This is not the kind of thing a production sysadmin wants to put on his installation. The Dew player is harder to assess, since the url you supply points to some text that is mostly in french. So, if we can find some information that increases Greg's comfort level about these extensions, that would help. [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 20:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 
::: I would understand that. If he believes that CZ might become buggy, I would re-upload the files as ogg. —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 19:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 
:::: Great. Let me know if you have problems uploading the file or getting it to play. Also, would you be willing to try to upload an ogg file greater than 2 MB. That is supposed to work and if it doesn't we need to figure out why. [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 19:39, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 
[unindent]


Just a brief note -- [[Ancient Celtic music]]  entry is up for Approval today -- are you satisfied that it's ready? Remember, it need not be either "perfect" in form or completely comprehensive, just well-written and able to stand on its own for now (as in my own view it already ''is'').  Further work can, and should be done, to develop it well beyond Approval, but right now I think it would be fabulous to have this as one of our Approved entries, to highlight something that no other encyclopedia covers in such depth and care.  Let me know your thoughts.  Cheers, [[User:Russell Potter|Russell Potter]] 07:28, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
Hi Arne. We have had a bug in our bugs database (Bugzilla) for a while about uploads being restricted to 2 MB. So far, no one else seems to have this problem. Would you verify that the problem still exists? If so, can you explain in some detail the steps you use to reproduce this bug? Right now we have moved the bug to Resolved/notabug, but we can reopen it if you can reverify the problem. [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 00:19, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
:I'm doing the final edits now. —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 08:57, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


::Arne, saw your note that you felt the article was all set, so I let the Constables know and updated the Approval pointer.  Just a minute ago, you made an additional small edit; I updated the pointer once more to reflect that.  Are we set to go?  If any minor copyediting things are found -- I couldn't find any -- we can always have a constable correct them at your request without doing things over again (I just had this done with [[Northwest Passage]] when I noticed an incorrect date!).  Thanks, [[User:Russell Potter|Russell Potter]] 11:35, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
== [[Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church]] ==


:::I've just finished my last edit. (I had found more infos on other Celtic instruments.) Off for a coffee now… you can hand it over to the constables now. ;-) —[[User:Arne Eickenberg|Arne Eickenberg]] 11:40, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
Just to let you know I've invited the Ombudsman. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 09:19, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 04:19, 25 October 2010


Classics articles

Perhaps what we can do, to get the classics articles approved, is to do some recruiting from classics mailing lists? There is one very big classics group, I forget what it is. --Larry Sanger 21:45, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

If this will serve a general purpose too, it would be fine with me. But no rush just for a few small articles. :-) —Arne Eickenberg 03:01, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Image:Augustus_Capricorn_SidusIulium.jpg

Thanks, perfectly done. :-)  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 22:31, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

Image:Gruenewald_IsenheimAltarpiece_Crucifixion.jpg

Arne, would you kindly see my note on the image page?  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 21:08, 21 July 2007 (CDT)

I added two links to the image's talk page, one commenting on the GFDL release of the image library by directmedia, the publisher of the printed offline-Wikipedia (see also here, the other one with a footnote mentioning the GFDL status. —Arne Eickenberg 21:50, 21 July 2007 (CDT)

Nicene Creed

Hello Arne,

You replaced "The original version promulgated at that time (from Epistola Eusebii, circa 350 A.D.)"

With

"The second version promulgated at that time (from Epistola Eusebii, circa AD 350)"

Do you have a source? --Thomas Simmons 00:52, 31 July 2007 (CDT)


Just saw the revert. LOL Never mind. --Thomas Simmons 00:54, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

And the Crux Orthodoxa in the Orthodox article, very nice.--Thomas Simmons 00:59, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

Caesar

I know it's a bit insular :-) , and I don't want to sound exclusionary, but this article seems to be about etymology more than anything else. Modern linguistics is radically different from pre-1950s study. Today, it's more about the study of patterns in language,and how these are represented in the mind, rather than the history of words.

Also, the problem here is that we don't have enough workgroups to distinguish the modern social science of linguistics from language study generally. And I realise you might be thinking about the Arne (name) article. But I think that lots of workgroups can cover language generally, rather than linguistics. John Stephenson 10:04, 12 August 2007 (CDT)

No problem. In essence, classical philology and etymology do belong to the "Classics" workgroup. So we have to acquire CZ authors/editors who also now a bit about these topics. :-)  Arne Eickenberg  talk 10:13, 12 August 2007 (CDT) note: original post here

Germany

Arne, Sie sind ein bisschen German, aren't you? I started a page on Germany because it was one of the most-linked-to dead links. It really needs the eye of someone who's actually a citizen. Danke, John. John Stephenson 10:26, 12 August 2007 (CDT)

Theodor Lohmann: Check Translation?

Arne, Along these same line ( deutch sprechen), I have a favor to ask: I've recently posted a translation I did of a brief biographical item on Theodor Lohmann, #2 to Bismarck in the 19th century development of the German social insurance system. (We share a common surname, but are no relation to my knowledge. See my comments on this on my talk page.) My German is somewhat shaky, and I am wondering if you would be willing to look over the translation and compare it with the original German Wikipedia article - which as far as I know is quite accurate - to see if I made any serious mistakes in the translation. Steve Ewen suggested you might be willing to do this.Ob Sie kanne oder nicht, vielen danke! Roger Lohmann 06:56, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

I answered on your talk page. We should deal with the article content and translations there and/or the article's talk page. Greetz.  Arne Eickenberg  talk 09:14, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

Gaius Iulius Caesar (name)

Approved!!! Sorry that took so long.. I dropped the ball (oops). Give me another one! --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:27, 20 August 2007 (CDT)

Jake the Explainer

Arne, I'm not quite sure what you were thinking of with Jake the Explainer, but it was posted for speedy deletion, and those who did so were quite right. This concept (not the artistic practice, but the name and specific conceptualization of the practice) seems to be your own original invention, or if not, then one that has virtually no currency at all. Anyway, the article now lives at CZ:Cold Storage/Jake the Explainer.

By the way, where have you gone? I enjoyed your contributions when you were here. --Larry Sanger 19:48, 7 December 2008 (UTC) (a.k.a. Larry the Editor)

Hi Larry, I'm still around and will surely return as an author in the future. I'm currently working on a lot of other projects, including my thesis, so it'll be some time before I return. Probably in 2009, though. By the way: the industry term Jake the Explainer was coined long before the internet arrived, which is probably why you don't find it on the web. Modern derivatives (which one does find) are e.g. the Morris & Sam. I took the term from the book Screenwriting Tricks of the Trade by William Froug, Emmy-winning writer/producer, producer of the year 1956 (Prod. Guild of America), recipient of the Writes Guild Valentine Davies Award 1987, professor emeritus (UCLA), founder of the UCLA Film & TV Writing Program, author of several books of screenwriting. So, it's definitely not my own invention. ;-)  Arne Eickenberg  talk 20:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Edit conflict! While you were writing the above, I was writing this:

Some more careful searching--searching on "Sam the Explainer" and "Morris the Explainer" too--shows basically that the concept is definitely not your invention (sorry for suggesting otherwise). The article you wrote lacked adequate sourcing, and the concept and names are certainly obscure, but neither of these was a reason to delete it. So...I'm about to undo my work (and Chris') and let the community discuss this before taking any further action. --Larry Sanger 20:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

See Talk:Jake the Explainer for more. --Larry Sanger 20:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about the rash of deletions on my part. I saw the deletion and move to cold storage so thought a general clean up of the subpages would make sense too. Please excuse the trigger finger. Chris Day 20:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Absolutely no problem. :-)  Arne Eickenberg  talk 21:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

My compliments on Carotta

Being Dutch and being a former colleague of Anton van Hooff (same university, different departments), I read with great pleasure your section about "Dutch Controversy" in the article on Carotta. I also read several of the Dutch articles that you link to, very interesting! I get the impression that Van Hooff's attacks are unscientific, he should be able to come up with better arguments. When you need help with interpreting/translating some of the Dutch sources let me know; I'm glad to be of assistance. --Paul Wormer 16:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. To be honest, I want this article to be neutral, fair and balanced. A slight problem at the moment concerning the Dutch debate is that there are no direct sources for the arguments made by the other "anti-Carottist" commentators. If you know any source for those quotes, I would be much obliged. At the moment I can only refer to them as tertiary and unsourced in a footnote, which makes the article look biased at that point. In any case, thanks for your kind offer. PS: It's always funny, how small the world is. ;) Van Hooff is no stranger to me. The tragic component here is that according to people close to him he is only attacking Carotta to get back at Cliteur and van Friesland, ex-journalists from the Buitenhof political TV format. (But I can't use that in the article; there is no independent source.) Seen from another viewpoint, van Hooff has the bravery to at least try a refutation. Many other reviewers (among them scholars) don't really dig into the subject. They never read the book, only about the book, but still say it's nonsense. That's not very scientific. Van Hooff seems to be different, at least in part, although I don't know whether he has really read the full research report. —Arne Eickenberg 16:52, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Problem with mp3 upload

Hi Arne,

I want to be sure I understand the problems you are having uploading mp3 files larger than 2 MB. Firstly, according to http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Images there is a 2MB limit on image upload. While you are uploading an audio file, not an image file, I suspect this limit applies to all uploaded files regardless of format. So, you want to increase the maximum size for an uploaded file. Do you have any limit in mind?

Secondly, there is no template for audio files. You mention that you could use the {{Image}} template, but this seems strange since the file is an audio file. You would prefer to use <mp3>FILENAME.mp3</mp3>, is this correct? Just so I understand, were you able to use the {{Image}} template for the 2 MB audio files you uploaded?

Thanks, Dan Nessett 17:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi Dan, thanks for the reply. (1) The upload page currently states:"Maximum file size: 50 MB / Permitted file types: png, gif, jpg, jpeg, ogg, svg, mp3, ogg." So that's probably the cause for my confusion. If the limit is 2MB, everything's fine. I can live with 2MB. I just thought the limit was 50MB (cf. here). (2) No template: okay (v.i, 4). (3) On the image template: I apparently confused the {{Image|…}} template with the standard [[Image:…]] code. The latter is possible with audio files, but it neither embeds them nor leads directly to the audio file. That's why I'm using direct URLs at them moment here. (4) The solution for audio files would either be a template like the "Listen" template at WP or markup like <mp3>FILENAME.mp3</mp3>. It doesn't really matter much how it is implemented. The only thing important for me is to be able to directly embed the audio files as streaming audio on an article page, including some form of player, with play, pause, stop etc. —Arne Eickenberg 17:21, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
It looks like the extension necessary to play mp3 files is not installed on CZ. So, I have added bug 3, which is an enhancement request for this extension. While we are at it, the extension for using ogg files is also not installed. Do you foresee any need for audio files in this format? If so, would you add an enhancement request for it on bugzilla? Thanks. Dan Nessett 18:10, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia prefers ogg files, because there are no licenses/patents involved. But the MP3 license is only connected to the creation of the file, i.e. the encoding process, the use of the algorithm. It has no effect on the later use of the file. WP founder Wales wrote: "The policy is that we must avoid file formats that can not be used by legal free software." But MP3 can be used by free software. QuickTime for example is free of charge. Furthermore, MP3 encoding is possible with freeware libraries such as LAME. So I don't really understand WP policy here, and Wales' reasoning was surely erroneous. At the moment I think that mp3 will do fine. The only problem is its lower quality, compared to other formats, but with the 2MB limit in place, this is a moot argument anyway. If the limit is one day raised, then it would be interesting to talk about other formats again. AAC comes to mind for example. —Arne Eickenberg 18:41, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
ON SECOND THOUGHT: There are already a lot of ogg files on Wikipedia, which are either public domain or added under fair use. So I guess it would be okay to implement an ogg extension at CZ too, so we can transfer files, when needed, without converting them to mp3. —Arne Eickenberg 18:47, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Would you add an enhancement request to bugzilla for ogg format files? (this would be an extension request. You can use the following url for reference: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:OggHandler ) I would do it myself, but I don't want most of the bug reports in bugzilla to be created by me. That gives the impression that bugzilla is my personal playground, which is not its intent.
I did just that a few minutes ago. Apparently it overlapped with Greg, who just installed the ogg handler, if I read it correctly. So we only have to see, how to proceed on the MP3 issue, either with the dewplayer (apparently CC A-SA) or with the FlashMP3 extension (GPL). —Arne Eickenberg 19:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

[unindent]

As I mentioned in the bug report, three of the WMF projects do not appear to have an mp3 extension installed. Do you know of any other high use MW wiki sites that do? Dan Nessett 19:31, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Not at this moment. —Arne Eickenberg 19:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Right now (perhaps I am misinterpreting things) Greg may be reluctant to load an extension that has not received some solid testing on another site. He has the responsibility for keeping CZ running and loading untested extensions increases the likelihood that this goal is not met (and he gets yelled at). If you look at the web page you reference for Extension:FlashMP3 you will see it is still in beta testing. This is not the kind of thing a production sysadmin wants to put on his installation. The Dew player is harder to assess, since the url you supply points to some text that is mostly in french. So, if we can find some information that increases Greg's comfort level about these extensions, that would help. Dan Nessett 20:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
I would understand that. If he believes that CZ might become buggy, I would re-upload the files as ogg. —Arne Eickenberg 19:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Great. Let me know if you have problems uploading the file or getting it to play. Also, would you be willing to try to upload an ogg file greater than 2 MB. That is supposed to work and if it doesn't we need to figure out why. Dan Nessett 19:39, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

[unindent]

Hi Arne. We have had a bug in our bugs database (Bugzilla) for a while about uploads being restricted to 2 MB. So far, no one else seems to have this problem. Would you verify that the problem still exists? If so, can you explain in some detail the steps you use to reproduce this bug? Right now we have moved the bug to Resolved/notabug, but we can reopen it if you can reverify the problem. Dan Nessett 00:19, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church

Just to let you know I've invited the Ombudsman. Peter Jackson 09:19, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

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