Template:CharterVote2/31/Discussion

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Make it clear that he helps with decisions about content, not behavior:

• The Managing Editor has the following duties:

1. to ensure — by means of executive decisions — that the principles and policies of the Citizendium concerning content and style are effectively and coherently observed;such decisions shall be based on established policy unless required in the case of a policy deficit. They may be overruled by the appropriate Council.
2. to represent the Citizendium in its relations with external bodies, such as the mass media, and academic or non-academic institutions.

D. Matt Innis 20:31, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

• Agree D. Matt Innis 21:32, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Agree, reluctantly, with the first clause.
  • Second clause: to be a primary point of contact for external bodies, consistent with the principles and policies of the Citizendium about external relationships.
  • The language should make it clear there could be other representatives and all work within policy.
  • I would prefer seeing Clause 2 deleted, and Clause 1 reflect Russell's analogy that the ME is to the EC as Constables are to the MC. Actually, I'd rather see the ME deleted, but this is a compromise.

Howard C. Berkowitz 22:01, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I also prefer Howard's "to be a primary point of contact" to replace "to represent" for the same reason. D. Matt Innis 22:41, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Taking the above into account and adding a small piece of my own:

1. to ensure — by means of executive decisions — that the principles and policies of the Citizendium concerning content, style and community administration are effectively and coherently observed; such decisions shall be based on established policy unless required in the case of a policy deficit. They may be overruled by the appropriate Council.
2. to be a primary point of contact for external bodies in their relations with the Citizendium

Joe Quick 05:05, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree D. Matt Innis 12:10, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

What does "be a primary point of contact for external bodies" mean in practical terms? Does this mean that the ME becomes the name to which citizendium.org is assigned at the DNS? Does it mean that when someone contacts me about CZ, I'm to say, "go talk to our ME?" How will any "external body" plopping down on CZ ever know to contact our Managing Editor? What if a Lawyer wants content removed? Who will they contact? I'm willing to bet they'll look up the name attached to the DNS of citizendium.org and contact Larry. Is that what we want? Russell D. Jones 13:03, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

All good points.. Howard, what ya think? D. Matt Innis 13:44, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to be excessively long, but I think I can make some specific suggestions. As I consider them, however, it strengthens my opinions that the ME has confused reporting to both the MC and EC, and really should have the details worked out in the Councils, not Charter, if indeed the Councils decide the position is needed. Ask yourself, long and hard, if people would have created a position with only these two roles, or if they are simply what was left after fighting.

Apropos DNS: It's perfectly acceptable to have what is called either "role" or "person" information in DNS. "Role" would be DNSmanager@citizendium.org, while "Person" would be "MariaRodriguez@citizendium.org". DNS also provides for points of contact for administrative/billing, technical, and registration matters.

With the external roles ill-specified, we are forcing together things that aren't necessarily realistic skill sets. Ideally, the initial contact has media relations expertise and probably some basic legal knowledge. There will be external relations for things clearly within the primary purview of the EC, such as workflow integration -- hypothetically, we might need one person intimately familiar with the discipline and another familiar with the integration technology (and internal standards on how we use the technology with different organizations).

More and more, I come back to an idea first floated by Russell (credit, not responsibility): the ME can be to the EC as the Constables are to the MC: policy executors. Trying to make it a first point of contact for everything doesn't make good organizational sense. It's a role supporting Councils, not supplanting them unless one is of the belief that Councils can never be effective. Since the position can't be elected, under current rules, without actions by a functioning EC or MC, I see it properly as not a major office, but as a Task Manager (do we still have Task Managers) with a well-defined set of functions deemed necessary by the Councils. It's less that some of the ME functions don't need to be done and more that it may not be logical to vest them in the same person.

Task Manager. Howard C. Berkowitz 15:30, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm thinking I'm going to go back to my first vote. D. Matt Innis 21:32, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm agreeing with Matt about going back to the beginning. This discussion is going nowhere. I've revised the original to reflect that the ME is responsible to the EC; acts by the Const in enforcing behavioral rules are appealable to MC; acts of the ME enforcing content and style rules of EC are appealable to EC. Russell D. Jones 18:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

• The Managing Editor has the following duties:

1. to ensure — by means of executive decisions — that the principles and policies of the Citizendium concerning content and style are effectively and coherently observed; such decisions shall be based on established policy unless required in the case of a policy deficit. They may be overruled by the appropriate Council. Acts of the Managing Editor may be appealed to the Editorial Council.
2. to represent the Citizendium in its relations with external bodies, such as the mass media, and academic or non-academic institutions.

Agree. Russell D. Jones 18:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

The word appeal seems to say that the appeal board is part of the EC.. so I switched it back unless we come up with a better word. Also added "due process" so the EC has to take some decision-making course of action. D. Matt Innis 18:26, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

• The Managing Editor has the following duties:

1. to ensure — by means of executive decisions — that the principles and policies of the Citizendium concerning content and style are effectively and coherently observed;such decisions shall be based on established policy unless required in the case of a policy deficit. Acts of the Managing Editor may be appealed overruled by the Editorial Council in due process.
2. to represent the Citizendium in its relations with external bodies, such as the mass media, and academic or non-academic institutions.

• Agree. D. Matt Innis 18:26, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Overruled, but not sustained? "in due process" sounds like "in due time" implying that the EC must overrule. How about "with due process." I don't agree with your reading of the phrase, Matt. But, I'd like to hear what the others think. Russell D. Jones 18:40, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

And now that it has been put back in, just, exactly, what is a "policy deficit?" Russell D. Jones 18:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay, Okay. I'll give you due process and raise you a defined policy.D. Matt Innis 19:00, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

• The Managing Editor has the following duties:

1. to ensure — by means of executive decisions — that the principles and policies of the Citizendium concerning content and style are effectively and coherently observed;such decisions shall be based on established policy where defined.unless required in the case of a policy deficit. Acts of the Managing Editor may be appealed overruled by the Editorial Council in with due process.
2. to represent the Citizendium in its relations with external bodies, such as the mass media, and academic or non-academic institutions.

Agree. D. Matt Innis 22:45, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree to the above from Matt, reformatted here:

The Managing Editor has the following duties:

1. to ensure — by means of executive decisions — that the principles and policies of the Citizendium concerning content and style are effectively and coherently observed. Such decisions shall be based on established policy where defined. Acts of the Managing Editor may be overruled by the Editorial Council with due process.
2. to represent the Citizendium in its relations with external bodies, such as the mass media, and academic or non-academic institutions.

Agree --Daniel Mietchen 23:10, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree --Russell D. Jones 00:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Re-Agree. D. Matt Innis 01:14, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Disagree. Accepting clause 1 is something I consider a major compromise, but clause 2 is beyond my limits. Howard C. Berkowitz 04:09, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Joe Quick 15:58, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

As a result of forum discussion, I agree that the ME should be able to make interim decisions related to things other than content and style. From the perspective of those that manage the software decisions, leaving overruling of ME decisions to the EC only gives them concern that they will have no say in how the MEs decisions are then mitigated. I've added the MC in the overruling process in the below configuration to make this less of an issue. D. Matt Innis 13:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

• The Managing Editor has the following duties:

1. to ensure by means of executive decisions that the principles and policies of the Citizendium concerning content and style are effectively and coherently observed; such decisions shall be based on established policy where defined. Acts of the Managing Editor may be overruled by combined votes of the Editorial Council and Management Council with due process.

1. to represent the Citizendium in its relations with external bodies, such as the mass media, and academic or non-academic institutions.

Agree. D. Matt Innis 13:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

So how is the ME different from a Constable under this language? Russell D. Jones 14:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)