Talk:Race (social)

Article Checklist for "Race (social)"

Workgroup category or categories	History Workgroup, Anthropology Workgroup, Sociology Workgroup [Editors asked to check categories]
Article status	Stub: no more than a few sentences
Underlinked article?	Yes
Basic cleanup done?	Yes
Checklist last edited by	Frank W Sweet 11:03, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

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CZ:Neutrality Policy

This article takes a position and is thus problematic in its current form on neutrality grounds. It does throughout and builds to, "The race concept remains fruitful for the study of historical events." It is lacking discussion that the concept of "race" itself is a serious contention among biological and other anthropologists; that "race" is widely held as a mere social construct and that historically the concept of "race" developed alongside racism. And so forth. ---Stephen Ewen 13:09, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

The article shows bias, but it also just doesn't read like an article about race per se, but an essay on the interaction of race, class, and ethnicity in regard to United States government policy. --Eric Winesett 13:22, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

The article really does read like an essay, but that's not apparently the sin here that it is on Wikipedia. It's obvious that racial differences have driven historical events (try to explain the history of slavery in the U.S. without reference to race), but the article does almost nothing to explain how, or why, which would be necessary if the article is to be meaningful.

"Race" is a difficult topic to address, because it has been misused by pseudoscientists and their followers, but there is a scientific basis for the belief that there are, among humans, genetically distinct population clusters which do correspond to geographic ancestry and to popular conceptions of race. See, for example:

• http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1196372
• http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1196372
• http://genetics.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pgen.0010070

Slightly less technical explanation at http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2007/01/metric-on-space-of-genomes-and.html

An article on race should explain that the history of racism has made many people uncomfortable with examining race in a scientific manner, and that some political bodies of social scientists have made the (unsupported) assertion that "race is a purely social construct", but it should also explain that genetic science is showing that there are distinct (and distinguishable) population groups within the human species, and that these groups show patterns of variation in a variety of genetic measures, though not necessarily along the lines most racists have stereotyped. Anthony Argyriou 18:13, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

To Anthony Argyriou, Stephen Ewen, and Eric Winesett: I apologize, because the first two sentences on the page are apparently unclear.

The first sentence says, "Race in social science.... etc." This is because the intent of the page is to explain how "race" is used the social sciences. That is, to explain how term is used in the fields of history, sociology, political science, and the like. Nothing more. I plan to expand the stub, but only in that direction.

The second sentence says, "For an explanation of race in biology see bio-race." This is because my intent is that readers follow the link for an explanation of the term's usage in biology. In other words, the definition and methodological criteria for identifying the biologically synonymous concepts: "race", "breed", "variety", and "subspecies" should be located on a page under the purview of the biology workgroup. I encourage all of you to post your opinions and arguments regarding the usefulness (or not) of identifying biological races, breeds, variety, and subspecies of H. sapiens on that subspecies page or its talk page.

Alternatively, if anyone would like to use this present article page (or this talk page) to describe arguments for and against identifying biological races, breeds, variety, and subspecies of the human species (again, under the purview of the biology workgroup), I would be glad to withdraw my text and start a new page to explain how "race" is used the social sciences--that is, how term is used in the fields of history, sociology, political science, and the like. Frank W Sweet 08:01, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

It would help if the article began with a definition of race. Also useful would be (1) the social uses, i.e., classification of people by race into "good" and "inferior" (after Bacon's Rebellion?) and (2) principled objections to this classification - including scholary attempts to eliminate the concept altogether.

I hope I'm not being too pedantic in my language. I'm not really an intellectual. ;-) --Ed Poor 08:50, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Regarding begining with a definition, the first sentence already is: "Race in social science, from the Latin for root, means a group delineated by society as sharing a common biological ancestry, clan, or lineage." This was taken, nearly verbatim, from Whitehall, Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language (Cleveland, 1959) p. 1197. Other definitions that I have found relate to biology, and I intend that the word's many changing and controversial biological usages be on a separate page. I would be grateful if you could suggest a better or more comprehensive definition that does not assume an accepted biological taxonomy.

Regarding the mistreatment or perceived inferiority of people because of their "race," this is "racism." Although I plan to introduce the concept of "racism" in this article, it will get its own article in order give it a fuller explanation. Yes, in that article, I do plan to mention the late 17th century historical origins of U.S. "racism" with focus on the world's first statute against Afro-Euro intermarriage (VA 1691) as well as that law's motive force (Bacon's Rebellion 1676). Bear in mind however, that the roots of Iberian and Hindu "racism" trace to different origins. Another reason that I want to give "racism" its own page is to compare/contrast it with colorism, ethnocentrism, and the like. Frank W Sweet 11:21, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Defining race: I really like the definition which Steve Sailer uses: "A racial group is merely an extremely extended family that inbreeds to some extent." (He expands on it at http://www.vdare.com/Sailer/presentation.htm ) He claims that he can't find a precedent for that definition in the literature, though it seems to be useful enough that someone should have used it by now. Anthony Argyriou 11:37, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

That is why I used a dictionary definition that did not require a biological assumption. The suggestion that a racial group is merely an extremely extended family that inbreeds to some extent is valuable and well worth discussing in the proposed bio-race page. Unfortunately, it fails as a definition for socio-historical usage. It is too inclusive and it is also too exclusive. Here is why it is too inclusive. Following that very definition, the greatest craniofacial anthropometrist of the 20th century, Carelton S. Coon demonstrated the presence of over twenty races in Europe alone. Indeed, every Swiss valley was a separate race. And yet, no one would consider those inbred extended families or populations to be “races” in the socio-historical sense (in the sense of racism, slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings, civil rights, affirmative action, etc.) And here is why it is too exclusive. Some of the most famous African-Americans in U.S. history were genetically European. Walter White feared being lynched in the south if it were discovered that he was a blonde, blue-eyed, utterly Nordic-looking man who was “really Black.” Among the most dedicated African-American activists today who fight for the Black community are Gregory Williams, Adrienne Piper, and David Matthews, who have no visible African ancestry at all. No serious socio-historical account would exclude such people and thousands like them from the social definition of the “African-American race.” Indeed, based on random sampling, about five percent of the Black community have no detectable subsaharan genetic admixture and about one-third of White Americans do. There is no question, of course, that Americans rationalize their racialism as grounded in biological difference. The problem is that reality does not match rhetoric. The mismatch between counterfactual rhetoric and demonstrable reality is important and will be explained in the article, but we cannot start with a definition that falsely assumes that the counterfactual rhetoric is accurate. Frank W Sweet 19:25, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

"Race", in the context of humans, definitely does not normally mean exactly the same thing as "race" when it is applied by biologists to other organisms; i.e., it is not a synonym for subspecies. However, this does not prove that "race" is purely social concept.

The problem with beginning the article with a definition of race is ... which definition? I don't know of a widely accepted consensus definition.—Nat Krause 18:27, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Whether “race” and “subspecies” are synonymous in biology should be discussed on the bio-race page, not here. Also, I have no intention of “proving” or “disproving” whether race is a "purely social concept.” Indeed, I would not know how to start defining the terms (proof, purely). Again, if such proving is desirable, it should be addressed on the bio-race page. This page is for “race” as a social phenomenon. No one doubts that the perception of “race” is a social phenomenon. Specifically, no one doubts that historical events can be illuminated by considering how people aligned themselves within different perceived “races.” And explaining race as a social phenomenon is my sole goal for this page.Frank W Sweet 19:25, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Well, what is your justification for deciding that this page should be for “race” as a social phenomenon?

I did not intend to discuss whether or not the terms "race" and "subspecies" are used as synonyms by biologists; I thought they were, but it doesn't matter. My point is that this instance of jargon is irrelevant to normal use of the term "race" when discussing human variation. It's a different sense of the same word. I've never heard the expression "bio-race" before, so I can't comment on what it means; Citizendium does not have an article with this title, though—instead, this article links to subspecies.—Nat Krause 20:07, 10 May 2007 (CDT)